Speaker 2 (00:00)
I am Mike Hendrix from smbGOLF And today my guest is James Cronk.

from Guru Collective and the Cronk Group. and this is the Tech Caddie podcast.

James, welcome to the show.

Speaker 1 (00:27)
Mike, it's great to be here. Thanks so much for having me.

Speaker 2 (00:30)
Well,

I feel like this is a big get for us. You're a podcast host yourself. You've been doing it, I think, longer than I have. And so I'm really excited to have you on. Tell everybody a little bit about yourself. I think you're in Vancouver, if I'm not mistaken.

Speaker 1 (00:46)
I am in Vancouver, yeah, you bet, and I've lived pretty much my whole life in North Shore, North Vancouver.

Speaker 2 (00:54)
Well, that's great. I want to specifically say I'm glad to have someone on from Canada and I'm very sensitive and focused on trying to have really strong Canadian relationships right now. And so thanks for coming on. for the grace that maybe you'll give us today.

Speaker 1 (01:15)
We're not gonna let the rest of the crazy world get in the way of good connections And that's one of the things I love about the golf business Mike You know I I can tell you in my 30 years in the business I don't think I've ever met someone in this industry that I couldn't have a beer with or have a conversation with and and Talk about the industry with that's the that's what brings us all together So we don't need to let some of the other crazy things going on in the world Destroy our passion for the game of golf good

Speaker 2 (01:42)
Good. You know, you do you talk about your history in golf, you know, you you've been in it for a while and you have a really cool perspective because you were an operator, you're a general manager at different clubs. And I think you've also kind of done some contract consulting work for different kinds for clubs. How did you get involved with golf? What you know, what got you into the business?

Speaker 1 (02:05)
Sure, yeah, no, that's a great question. Well, I won't give you the three hour story, Mike, because I do have a three hour version that my mother wrote for me. But I will give you the short version. I like to say that I was an actor when I was younger. I was professional actor. And the best part that I played was that as a janitor, because that's how I paid the rent. It certainly wasn't through acting, I can tell you.

And when I was in my late 20s, I read this book called What Color Is Your Parachute? which is a career-choosing Bible that is from back in the day literally written in like, I think the late 60s or the 70s. And it told me I should get in the golf business. I dabbled in the golf business a little bit when I was going to university. And so I was 28, became an assistant golf professional.

I was very lucky to get my PGA of Canada cart at that time. And I then got in the golf business, became an assistant pro, director of golf, general manager, blah, blah, blah. Spent about 15, 16 years, I guess, doing that. And then about 15 years ago, I went on my own to become a consultant. And I've been searching for my next paycheck every single day.

Ever since then basically speaking I will say that prior to getting involved business though I was I was heavily involved in the restaurant business and I was a manager with a very successful restaurant company that still exists today in North America and I think that gave me a very unique perspective of understanding food and beverage Mike that has helped me in my consulting work because as we all know

You know, food and beverage is the bane of many club managers existence. And so I enjoy bringing those, hospitality stuff together.

Speaker 2 (04:07)
That's good. have that in common. We both have a restaurant background, I am interested, you we talk a lot about technology on this podcast and how technology and golf kind of come together. And we are seeing restaurant technology companies get into golf. I don't know if you've been exposed to that, but we're certainly seeing Toast is coming in.

If you want to refer to Lightspeed as a restaurant technology company, think some people would say that's fair. Clover on and on. What's your, you know, what's your thought on restaurant tech companies getting into golf?

Speaker 1 (04:42)
I think, of course, I, know, for those of us that have been in business long enough, remember when, you know, the food and beverage POS didn't talk with a tee sheet POS, which didn't talk to the retail POS, you know, which, which, you know, if you had members, it was complicated if you had annual palette, etc, etc, right. And so, as I've watched technology evolve and get better, better look,

In Canada, golf is an $18 billion industry. And I think that was unknown to many people for a long time how significant the golf industry is in your country and in our country, because I know it's multiplied by 10 in the United States. And so it's natural for them to see these opportunities, because we haven't done it very well. In the golf space, we've never really done food and beverage great.

And there's lots of clubs doing $8 million of business that don't have a kitchen display system. So, I mean, are you kidding me? Let alone a structured inventory process. now they're learning, and when a private club, and I'm not picking on a private club, but when it's very common for private clubs to lose hundreds of thousands dollars in their food and beverage business, right? And so...

then a board member gets on the board and they ran a restaurant once, and now they want to change food and beverage. And the reality is that that club, that club manager has to explain A, how they operate their food and beverage business and B, why they are losing 20% of the bottom line. And we all know the reasons why, and that's a whole other podcast, but there is technology out there that will help you.

solve those problems and also explain those situations in a much better way. So I think it's natural to me that food and beverage companies technology is seeing that opportunity because once again there is an opportunity, there's a need.

Speaker 2 (06:39)
You know another benefit of that though James is I I'll back up a little bit I had a you know very confidential conversation with a management company leader last week and He or she I won't even say you know he or she said that the technology in golf is Worse than subpar was very disheartened with the technology in golf But but I do know technology leaders in golf that have seen what Toast is doing and have seen what Lightspeed is doing

And it is pushing them. I know of new F and B modules that are just about to be released and whatnot. And whether, whether those founders would say it out loud to me or not, I know it's the pressure from these larger companies that's pushing them to get better. And I think that's good ultimately for the operator. And that's ultimately why I'm here. I'm here to help the operator, right? And so the more competition I think the better.

Speaker 1 (07:34)
Well, you you start off talking about technology and if you don't mind, I'll tell you about how I ventured into this kind of technology space because it really was driven out of exactly what you're saying. So, you know, I've been very fortunate to be a speaker, you know, getting back to my acting days. I love, you know, I'm not afraid of a stage or a microphone. Anyone will tell you that.

Speaker 2 (07:57)
you and I have that in common as well.

Speaker 1 (08:01)
They have to pry it out of my hands whenever I've given out a microphone like but You know I would go around the world and speak at these conferences, and I would hear all these amazing Speakers and educators and consultants people in the food and beverage space people in the golf space people in the retail in the marketing space and And I and I would sit at these conferences somewhere Timbuktu, and I think to myself You know it's too bad that only a hundred and fifty people heard that

presentation, you know, or it's too bad that someone that lives in, you know, Manitoba, Canada is not going to be able to fly around the world and listen to Robert Sereci or Greg Patterson talk about leadership. And so I always had this aspiration to create a training platform where using technology, I could have this library of content and

disseminated out online right and have this kind of online Education platform called that we now have called Golf Industry Guru right and and it's called Golf Industry Guru because You know, think we have now 90 gurus that have given us content whether it's you know podcasts whether it's a course whether it's a webinar whether it's an article whatever it might be using technology, there's so many ways for operators to

provide education and training that is just so much more easier and less expensive than if you had to do it physically, which is what technology does, as you say, whether it's all these other platforms that are out there helping operators use technology to be more efficient, be more effective.

Speaker 2 (09:42)
It's interesting that you tell that story about it's too bad only a hundred people see this. The last keynote I gave at Golf Inc, we brought the full Golf Channel camera crew with us because it had occurred to me back then as well that you've got to get this stuff on film and you've got to push it out so that the masses can see it. I think at the time, actually, I don't know today how Golf Inc does their conferences, but at the time,

Golf Inc was not filming every presentation and then pushing it out. I, and I, and so, you know, I was lucky, right? I had an entire production crew at my fingertips. And so we brought them and we filmed it and, and pushed it out. So I hear, you know, I hear what you're saying. you know, you talk about technology and what you're involved with the reason for today's podcasts and the way we'll, I'm sure we'll brand it and whatnot.

We're going to talk about this idea behind e-waivers and specifically they relates to golf carts and you can get into more specifics about it. But I will say I was I was at an owner's meeting in Ohio. I had attended a couple and I was a speaker and I was struck by how many people had different stories about what they're doing with cart waivers. And then I found you guys and you had technology that was involved with cart waivers. But it's the same story.

there weren't enough people at that meeting to really make a big impact on the entire state of Ohio. And so I thought, well, if I could get you to come on and talk about the importance of these waivers, then maybe we could push it out to my audience, which tends to be, you know, tends to skew high on the Ohio side. so talk to me about what you're doing with, with e-waivers. Cause I do think, unfortunately, I think it's important, because there are some, there's a lot of risks that, and frankly, pain.

that some operators are feeling related to golf cart waivers.

Speaker 1 (11:38)
Yeah, yeah, yes. 100 % thank you. Well, if you don't mind, I'll go back a little bit further. I always reference this, my experience as a club manager, right? So my company was managing a club many years ago. And when I first took on the contract, I was handed this little file folder from the general manager that was going out the door. And it was like, you got to take care of this.

And then, you know, the next day I get a call from the company's lawyer and, you know, a similar story, right, Mike? You know, a man in cart driving backwards down a hill flips the golf cart. As he falls out of the cart and drastically damages his brain, out comes the bottle of Fireball that he had brought in on himself that he was drinking.

you know, out comes, all the reasons why this incident happened, right? Terrible, terrible incident. However, you know, the clubs being sued, you know, where's the incident statements, where's the pictures, where's the documentation, and where's the waiver, right? And there was no waiver. There was nothing signed. That club wasn't implementing waivers at that time. And so...

you know, ultimately that insurance company settled for hundreds of thousands of dollars. And I'm not to suggest for a second that a signed waiver is going to somehow clear up all of your concerns and your liability and your negligence or whatever might happen at a facility. But there's a reason when I take my kids to the trampoline park, I have to sign three different waivers.

Speaker 2 (13:27)
Yes.

Speaker 1 (13:27)
There's

a reason why my kid goes on a school field trip, I have to sign a waiver. There's a reason why nowadays there are waivers that are just part of our day-to-day living. And then, of course, Mike, I would say to you, as the golf industry can some only known, is a little bit slow to adapt to what is happening in the rest of the world.

Speaker 2 (13:53)
James, what's important when you, this is what's so interesting to me about this and just, so I'm in my mid fifties, right? And so I start playing golf when I don't know, I'm 12 or something like that. I remember a time where you could not get on the golf course without signing that ticket, right? And somewhere along the line, James, that went away. And that's what really strikes me about this. guess maybe sometimes like old is new or something like that, but it seems like there's a generic, well,

a large number of operators that are not thinking about this. I don't know how we got to that place, but there was a disconnect there. And I think that's what got me so interested in this thing.

Speaker 1 (14:34)
Well, and you're going to find someone our age or a little bit older that's going to say waivers mean that don't work. You're going to find that. That's a very small percentage. And then I'm going to be able to introduce you to insurance companies and law firms that will tell you that they do work and that in fact, you must have them. So what's happening now, Mike, in certainly some clubs and some conversations that we have with insurance companies.

They are literally telling some of the clubs that they insured that they will not provide them with insurance anymore unless they start implementing some ways to reduce their risk and liability, including waivers. Right? Because they've had three, they've had three cart flips in the last three years. They've had, you know, someone, three guys out drinking too much and falling down into a lake or whatever. Whatever is all the, you know,

I do this session called it's all fun and games. So someone loses an eye and in that session do we have done a lot of research about how often incidents happen Mike someone dies once a month on a golf cart in North America. It's it's wow It's unbelievable like Google it like it's unbelievable. It's scary. It's terrible stuff. So I agree with you getting back to waivers, you know and and lots of people right now that you know that

The ticket comes out of the POS system, right? There's this long stretch of information. And then at the bottom, they turn it to the customer and say, here, sign the waiver. They scribble some kind of signature of some kind, it's not eligible. Hopefully they don't write the credit cart number on the receipt, which is completely against the law, but there's some golf courses that do that. And then they put it in a file folder, and then they put it in a banker's box, and then it goes down to the cage downstairs in the basement.

And then, know, goodness forbid something three months later, eight months later, a year and a half later, the insurance company calls and says, remember that golfer that tripped in the hole on, you know, hole number 15 and broke their ankle and said they were fine? Well, guess what? They're now suing us. So can you please go find that waiver? And can you please match it to that person? you know, good luck to you, right? So.

Speaker 2 (16:54)
James, take us through your tech. I look, I want to, you didn't write the code. You didn't invent this, right? You're working with a few people that built the platform, but take us through how e-waiver works. And then if you can, I, can circle back to it, but I'm also interested to know when someone just buys a tee time and they click a box for terms and conditions.

Does that cover the waiver or like, no, no, no, that's not nearly detailed enough. It'd be interesting to have you share that with us.

Speaker 1 (17:27)
Well, let me, yeah, I'll go through a few things. So let me just get back to eGolf Waiver. So Golf Industry Guru, which is our educational staff training program, we happen to have 30 or 40 clubs in Australia that are part of our Golf Industry Guru world, right? And we're all around the world and we have a great partnership with some guys down in Australia. That led us to meeting...

Actually a platform invented by gonna Ben Gibson, which is The Toolbox, which is our other Safety platform, which is a health and safety technology Mike. It's the same thing, right? It is instead of all of your safety minutes and and your documentation on training staff on equipment in a file folder or in the superintendent's head and in a drawer somewhere it's just using technology to

To create a culture of health and safety and to reduce risks So that's our toolbox platform and that is a platform that we believe Helps clubs reduce risks and manage hazards. Okay that led us Into meeting the guys with eGolf waiver, which is Luke and Phil out of Australia They're also out of Australia, which seems to be a hotbed of technology in the golf world and Luke and Phil are brilliant entrepreneurs that

created a couple years ago, their digital waiver. They come from hospitality safety waiver world. Australia is very about compliance and it's about safety. can't do anything in the golf business down there without being compliant. so using technology allowed them to kind of find a niche and they just saw an opportunity. Same thing, guys were using pen and paper and they thought, hey, we can make that simply a digital experience.

So I'll give you a little rundown if you don't mind about how eGolf waiver works.

Speaker 2 (19:25)
Yes, that. Yeah, let's go through if I'm a customer of eGolf waiver. What's it gonna feel like? How's it gonna work?

Speaker 1 (19:32)
Yeah, sure. Well, we would say a couple things. Number one is that if you're a club operator and you either do or do not do waivers, however you take care of the customer experience, whether they get the cart key at the golf shop, whether they get the cart key at the bag drop, whether they go to see a starter that starts them on the first tee, however you communicate your experience.

our platform can work as such. Okay, so the platform can happen in the golf shop. The signing of the waiver can happen in advance actually in the golf shop at the the carts barn or on the first tee number one. And so fundamentally, you know what happens is that you have a little tablet little Android tablet. And when you come into the golf shop, it's Mr. Smith. Here's cart number 22.

And mr. Please fill out our waiver and the little tablet is facing the golfer and they type in their cell number and their email address and their name and Then they digitally sign it with their finger that they've signed that waiver now next time they come Mike as soon as they start typing in their cell number and automatically populates Right, and I'm not gonna go through the 15 bells and whistles about the platform works But fundamentally the golfer has now digitally signed with their finger that waiver

That waiver gets emailed to them directly. So they get a copy of that waiver. We don't make the waiver. The waiver is whatever your legal lawyer or your company or your insurance company wants to have on your waiver. Now, there are many best practices about what you should include on that waiver, including the fact that you get, as you might know, Mike, right now there's a case in front of the Supreme Court about a golfer that got hit in the eye with a golf ball.

that is suing a golf course. Now, there's lawyers that will say there's all kinds of issues around that topic, but I know for a fact that if that waiver said we're not responsible for any damages that may occur to you from golfers or other golfers or whatever it might be, it's not just protecting the golfer against a golf cart. There's all kinds of things that can happen that they can hold you liable for.

So the waiver gets listed, they sign the waiver, and then that automatically goes into the cloud, and you've signed out that cart to that golfer. So it's assigned to that golfer, including you can have rental clubs, you could have your rent bikes, paddleboards, whatever you rent can come out of that waiver platform.

Speaker 2 (22:15)
Okay, let me so on the on court case that you mentioned, is that the same court case that Jay Karen has talked a lot about? That's in the state of New York, I think. Yeah. And and yeah, and I think he's done a great job of that. And I think everybody's super interested to know what the outcome is going to be and what

Speaker 1 (22:21)
Yes.

interested. Yeah. And once again, I'm not a lawyer. I'm not saying that if you have a signed digital waiver that somehow your problems are going to go away, you're not going to end up in a NY Supreme Court. But it's another layer of protection. You asked me, I'm going to answer this question, you asked me the difference between, you know, clicking terms and conditions, I agree to digitally signing a waiver. When you have digitally signed something, you are have greater protection as the owner operator.

than if someone just hits okay. So when you get to a golf cart and up comes a you are agreeing to use this golf cart and not hold us liable and you hit okay, that's not the same as I, Bill Smith, am signing a waiver that then agrees to all these various different terms and conditions that are outlined on your waiver.

Speaker 2 (23:22)
When we were when when I was at this one of the meetings with the Ohio owners that specifically came up, you know, it was the scenario of they have golf outings and whenever they have a golf outing, they insert the cart waiver on the screen of the cart. But they never did talk about, you know, signature pad. And so that's that's good that you said that. You know, one of the things that comes to mind for me and you did allude to it. So I want to ask you, wouldn't wouldn't it be amazing is

if I could sign the waiver when I booked the tee time online. That would be, think, you know, it really streamlines the process. It gets me to the first tee quickly and it covers a lot of the liability issues.

Speaker 1 (24:03)
Yeah, and so so you know we mentioned Lightspeed earlier on our very first integration with our platform and a tee sheet company is with Lightspeed. We are days away from going live and so what will happen is you book a tee time online. It triggers the platform to get send you an email. You get an email. Can't wait to see you at XYZ Golf Club in the coming days. In advance of coming, please sign this waiver.

They open their computer, they sign with their mouse or with their, however they do it on their phone, they sign it. It then shows on the tee sheet screen, Mike, when the golfer arrives that day, oh, Mr. and Mrs. Smith have both signed the waiver because there's an icon on the tee sheet that says they've signed the waiver. Mr. and Mrs. Jones haven't signed the waiver. Oh, Mr. and Mrs. Jones, I see you haven't signed the waiver. Could you please do that right now,

So it will speed up the exercise drastically. I will tell you though that there's 150 golf courses right now that are using the waiver that don't have any integration with the tee sheet and it still takes seconds to do. And I'll share with you a little bit of the bells and whistles in a minute. But you can send it to tournaments in advance, can send, as long as you have people's email address, you can send it in advance with annual pass holders. They do it once, right? So now you've got it. Then you just assign them to the cart.

so that you've got a waiver for them for a member, for example, for the course of a year. So there's lots of different ways to do it. But I will just share with you the main feature, because as I mentioned, it's about a tablet. It's like a rental car, right? You check the rental car before you go out, and you sign that the rental car is in this shape or that shape. And then when you come back in, the staff then check that cart back into the system.

And if hypothetically there is some damage of some kind, well, guess what? They've got a little tablet. They click on a button that says, cart's damaged. Then they take a picture of the damage. Then they make a note and say, windshield broken. And then it sends an email to the person responsible for broken windshields. And then you have a timestamp of when it came in. And so you eliminate any debate whatsoever about

whether or not there was damage when that cart left and when that cart came back and who's responsible for it.

Speaker 2 (26:32)
And for the James, for the golfers that watch this pod, help them understand what kind of financial numbers we're talking about, like the value of a golf cart, what it costs to fix it. Because this of course all matters to the operator. If they don't have coverage, this is going to come out of their pocket. I think a lot of golfers think that golf, you could buy a brand new golf cart for 500 bucks. Yeah. and, that's clearly not the case. Help people understand what kind of dollars we're talking about here.

Speaker 1 (27:00)
Well, what I love, I love those golf courses that some will either put in their waiver, they'll put on their website, and some of them put a sticker note on the actual cart that says a broken windshield is $1,000. A GPS screen is $2,500. a ball washer is $350. And these are real, when a golf cart is $12,000.

You know, gets it's not just the engine that makes it $12,000 and so You know the example that I use there's a golf course in the states in not far from you Treetops that has they in 2024 they discovered before we got the North American rights to e-golf waiver They got it from Australia and we talked to their fellow there Mike when we were looking at bringing e-golf waiver to North America and they told us that

They have about 240 carts, you four golf courses, whatever it is. They have a lot of carts. But, you know, they told us that normally each year they would have $50,000 to $60,000 of damage to carts that they were not able to collect on. So lots of times you get damage and you can collect, you know, you've got someone's credit cart, the guy or girl fesses up. Yes, I did that. It was a mistake. But lots of times people just, you know, drop the cart off in the parking lot, get in their car and try to bolt, right?

After one year of using this platform, they told us they expected their 2024 amount to be $5,000. Wow. Yeah. And I asked them, I said, that because you can track down who did it? And his answer was, he thought it was two things. Number one is, they can track down who did it. But number two is, the psychological impact when someone signs a waiver and it gets emailed to their inbox,

And they know they just took responsibility for that $12,000 machine.

Speaker 2 (29:01)
Yes. So James, mean, that's the perfect tell us why did people get away from signing? Right? mean, the individual at Treetops is saying, I think it has a psychological impact when someone signs this thing. And yet, thousands of golf courses have done away with signing a waiver. What happened?

Speaker 1 (29:21)
think a couple things, think number one is that, you know, it's like insurance. You only need it when you need it. So if the process is onerous on your staff, if the process is onerous on your customer, if the process is onerous on your storage system, if you're holding onto all these receipts for the possibility one day

that a year and three quarters later someone's gonna phone you up and say, find me August 12th, you know, at 3 p.m. when Mr. Smith said he tripped in a bunker, find me that, you know, it becomes a bit of a search and rescue operation and most people can't do it. Or if they can do it, they can't specifically find the specific receipt and signature that matches that individual. Some people can, some people can't.

So I think that just like we know, we talk about POS and other technology. High tech equals high touch. Technology is made to make our lives easier so that we have a better experience and more time with the guests. So what we would say is that why not use technology to protect you, to protect your customer, to protect yourself from frivolous lawsuits?

Once again, if you're golf cart does not breaks and it crashes into the pond, well guess what? No waiver is going to save you 100%. But if you've got a whole bunch of more new 35-year-olds getting drunk driving carts and doing donuts and finding that your brand new machine is going to have more scratch and whistles and problems with it, wouldn't you want to have a system that is going to make that person think twice?

before they drive it through a bunker.

Speaker 2 (31:17)
This also makes me think, I think this is where I tend to add value to some of these conversations. I am now thinking, should we be trying to sell insurance to the golfer? There is weather insurance that we're seeing make its way into tee time purchases. Should we be offering for $9.95, you can buy insurance on the golf cart today while you have it out on the golf course.

Speaker 1 (31:43)
In Canada, Mike, our national golf association, right, the Golf Canada, which is our USGA version of Canada, right, they have, in their handicap system, they have insurance for your lost clubs, for your damage of clubs. It would be very easy for them to increase and to add that on, right, that insurance to the golf for 100%.

Speaker 2 (32:05)
So let me ask you this too, because you mentioned that you mentioned 150. I think you were kind of saying like there's about 150 courses using this today. What's your experience when you're signing them up? I'm very interested to know what their state of waivers was the day before they became a customer.

Speaker 1 (32:25)
Yeah, so a couple things. I want to be clear. Those are almost all in Australia. So they've been there for a couple years. They're growing, they're building, they're adding courses all the time. We've just brought this platform to North America in October, November.

Speaker 2 (32:45)
to your point, the integration with Lightspeed is about to go live. So I guess that that all lines up perfectly. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (32:50)
Right exactly, but we have been onboarding new courses and selling courses as we as we go here, right? So the conversation goes exactly like that as you think hey, we currently do waivers and We heard about your platform walk us through it. So we we give them a you know the presentation They implement it. It's a very affordable platform also, let me talk about that in a second But you know whether it's ten cents a waiver, whatever it might be like it's it's not

On average, our platform is about $4,000 a year, right? So we base it based on the number of carts, the number of, you know, rounds of golf and how many months you're open. So if you're open 12 months a year and you've got 140 carts, you're going to be more than that. But the average, you know, somewhere between three grand and six grand, But, you know, we went to a client just the other day that had been implementing it for two weeks.

The staff loved it. You know, they're just like, it's so easy. have it. We have it on a swivel on the golf shop counter. So it swivels between the customer and the golf shop. You know, it takes seconds. It's literally 20 seconds for the first time. Like when someone does it, you can ask for as much information as you want. And then lastly, there, we were talking to the golf shop staff and we asked them how it was going after their second week of implementing it.

And they said they loved it. The golfers really thought it was cool. The golfers understand waivers. No one sits there and goes, why in the world would I sign a waiver? Agreed. They understand that we're in the waiver business. And then of course, what he talked about was how happy their owners and their insurance company was. We have a partner in Canada called Signature Risk, which is called Signature Specialty in the United States.

If you implement our waiver platform, they will reduce your liability premiums.

Speaker 2 (34:46)
Yeah, that's great. And as you become more ubiquitous in golf, I think you'll see that grow, would be my thought.

Speaker 1 (34:53)
100 % and and I will I will just add one more very important caveat, which is that In Australia, they called this platform called eGolf Cart Wavier We we asked them to consider changing the name when we brought to North America because we don't think it's a golf cart wavier We think it's a golfer wavier who knows who was driving on the third hole when when you know bill might have rented the cart

but Steven might have been the one that was doing donuts. Or not only that, Bill might have rented the car, but Steven might have tripped in a hole. Or they might not rent a car at all. Maybe they're walkers. They still get hit by a golf ball from the driving range. So we believe every golfer should sign the waiver. It's not just the person riding the car. It's every golfer that checks in should sign the waiver. And once again, for tournaments, for groups.

You can send them that the link in advance there are ways to get people to do waivers You know besides 144 people on the first deal a shotgun you know there's ways to do it and even if you don't have you know you you get them to sign the waiver and Then you figure out later on to sign them to the cart They actually got in some you know some guys that don't have numbers carts some people the keys universal There's lots of different ways that golf courses operate

but even having a digital sign waiver is better than having nothing. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (36:19)
Yeah, and I do, you know, I can envision the starter having a tablet in his or her hand rather than the written paper that we used to have. And a starter may see that, one of the people in this foursome hasn't signed the waiver yet. Let me get that done before they actually tee off.

Speaker 1 (36:37)
100%.

And when you have a little tablet, can actually click cart number one to sign out. You can actually scan a QR code that's on the cart if you want to use the QR code on the cart that brings up the cart. If you have a key ring, we can use the thing with a key where you scan it. So there's multiple different ways for it to work. as I said, everyone that we talk to that uses it, they love the fact that they're protected.

their golfer understands what they're doing. are improving, using technology to improve the experience and to keep themselves, know, reduce the risk.

Speaker 2 (37:19)
And then let's let this thing become a revenue generator for clubs. If we can figure out selling the insurance, the club can maybe make an additional five bucks per round or something like that. And that would be interesting as well. So maybe that's version 2.0.

Speaker 1 (37:36)
Well, when someone asks about the ROI, right? The ROI comes in a handful of different ways. But if you do have an incident, it will certainly protect you more robustly. Your insurance premiums can come down and pay for it. Certainly, if you have an incident and you are able to protect yourself, you're going to keep your insurance from going up. So there's a whole bunch of ways that that

four grand is going to, you even just reducing cart damage. You know, if you're able to hold someone to account and say, Mr. Smith, I know you said you didn't do it, but here's the golf cart on Sunday when it was fine that we have, that we've signed off. Someone signed off three times in a row saying this cart was completely fine. And here's the timestamp picture that Billy took in the back shop last night on Monday that shows that, you know, there's a huge scuff on the bumper.

Right? And you sign and you sign and there's your signature. Guess what? You owe us 300 bucks.

Speaker 2 (38:40)
Right, right, right. Yeah, I do think and this could be a little bit of a change in process for operators, but it does sound like that check-in piece is important. You know, at the end of the round that someone's going to check the car in properly and really kind of close off the loop on the whole thing.

Speaker 1 (38:58)
Yeah, and it doesn't have to happen immediately. It's like, just like we all know, right? 20 carts get lined up at the end of the night and the kids are washed them in the dark. I mean, at the end of the day, you're still going to have proof that you were the last person, Mr. Smith, to have that golf cart on the golf course. You know, there's a back end of the system where one of the things I love about it is that the back end of the system, like you can, once again, it also helps you manage golf carts, right? So you can...

Speaker 2 (39:15)
Right, right, right.

Speaker 1 (39:27)
You can take a damaged golf cart out of the rotation. You can keep track of the damage in the technology so that you know this is what's going on. As opposed to a post-it note that we used to stick on the steering wheel, know, don't use this. There's ways to do all that. And then the other thing, of course, is that what I love is that it'll show you immediately that on Tuesdays, Mary is getting 90 % of golfers to fill out the waiver.

And on Wednesday, Steven behind the counter is getting 20 % of golfers getting the waiver signed. Right? And so you immediately get to see, Steven, what's the deal, bud? Where did you get the waiver signed? So you'll be able to know right away when you get to 100 % compliance and whether or you're sitting at 30 or 40%. And why? Why would you be, there's always excuses, right?

Speaker 2 (40:21)
Right? Well, listen, I, um, I hope more people use this because they, because the operator needs some more protection. let's talk about when things don't go right. I didn't get a waiver. Uh, we don't do waivers anymore. Essentially is the golf course operator just looking at, yeah, you're going to be out nine grand like that. That car cannot be fixed now. And that's a $9,000 replacement.

Speaker 1 (40:46)
Yeah, you know what I exactly like here's what here's why people are going to say they don't do waivers, right? I don't want my customer to sign a waiver. don't I don't want it to be a negative experience. Okay, well, well guess what asking for 120 bucks to be a negative experience like your job is to make sure that experience is as seamless and as positive as possible, right? So that's the staff training issues. I my staff don't have the time.

Once again, it's a watch the watch the video on our website. It's a 20 second experience and literally there's all kinds of things we do with the golfer for that process. Number three is you might not have needed a waiver, but I will tell you that you talk to insurance companies and and and you ask organizations like the NGCA and others. Like you said in your Ohio meeting, Mike, I do a session.

How many people have hired a lawyer in the last year? And how many golf course owner operators put up their hand for whatever reason it has to do? How many people had an incident with damaged equipment or rental clubs? How many people have a rental club gone stolen? How many people, know, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, right? So it's just a matter of time before it's going to happen to you. And once again, I'm not suggesting that a digital signed waiver is going to wash yourself clean.

from being responsible if something were to happen. But it is certainly going to add to your layer of due diligence. And that's what insurance companies and lawyers are looking for. Are you practicing an industry best practice to protect yourself against frivolous lawsuits or frivolous claims? And are you doing everything you possibly can do, right? And if you say, don't believe in waivers, well, once again, like,

Like waivers are around us and nothing's going to become less structured. waivers and safety and risk and assessments is just going to get more more stringent, not less stringent.

Speaker 2 (42:56)
Right, right. you know, it's interesting. You kind of made me think of something there when you talked about, I don't want my customer or my golfer to have a bad experience. That actually does remind me of when golf got really bleak in terms of demand, in terms of rounds played, we stopped requiring like the golfer to give us his credit card number over the phone for a Saturday tee. mean, back in the day, younger operators that don't know.

That happened, you know, a hundred times a day. We took down a credit card number to hold your tee time. But then there was, there's a seesaw of balance of demand versus sell through, et cetera. And when the demand goes away, the operator gets a little nervous and like, Hey, I just, I just need to, somebody would just maybe send a smoke signal that says hold a nine, 10 tee time for me. I'll probably do it. You and now demand has come back in favor of the operator.

And for a couple of these things, one, you've got to pay me if you want to take a slot off the tee sheet. Secondly, if you're going to use my, my stuff out on the golf course, my equipment out on the golf course, you got to sign something that says, if you break my equipment, you're going to compensate me for it. Right. Whether to your point, whether it's golf clubs that you rented or a golf car.

Speaker 1 (43:57)
sheet.

Speaker 2 (44:15)
or a pull cart or whatever it is, if you break something of mine, there's gotta be some financial commitment there that you're going to make me whole. and, so I would encourage especially the younger operators to, those are points you can stiffen up on a little bit and say, yeah, well, this is a, this is an agreement. I'm selling you something and it comes with some terms and conditions.

Speaker 1 (44:37)
We're the only business that gives people a $12,000 machine lets them drink their own beer out of their bag drive around a hilly facility with ponds and bunkers and holes and then things that we don't need to be protected Yeah, and and you know all you have to do is look at YouTube and see once again like the number of incidents are drastically increasing insurance costs for golf clubs is Drastically increasing the reason why it's increasing

is because we could do a better job of protecting ourselves from claims. And it's getting passed on now, right? And this is what you hear about from the insurance world and just from what's going on world. They will tell you the number of calls they get, the number of claims they get, because there's more golfers, there's less educated golfers, as a generalized statement.

There is more youth on the golf course inexperienced. more, and then there's more craziness, right? There's more, there's more someone that goes from a Topgolf that thinks I can do this and then gets in a golf golf cart and all of a sudden thinks it's just like they watch on television.

Speaker 2 (45:48)
Right. I do think, you know, in in defense of the business or the operator, we actually do want all those people to come and be customers. I understand some operators like, I don't want those people. But we want to grow our business. You're sitting in the seat where you say, Yeah, grow your business, but let me help you protect yourself while you're doing it. I think that that's really what we're what we're discussing.

Speaker 1 (46:10)
And let's also help educate that golfer about their own responsibility and liability for taking our, like you said, for taking our equipment. Like, and that's what I do believe in the Treetops example. I do believe it is more so about the psychology of that person. That no, it's just like Mike, when he and I rent a car, man, like we, when we, when I signed my signature on something that tells me, think to myself, I think to myself,

Does this credit card give me insurance? I think about all these things before I put my John Henry down. Yeah, I agree. And it's how I think it's drastically the same as far as this goes.

Speaker 2 (46:47)
We're gonna wrap it up, but you did mention traveling. I know you speak really across the globe. I think you're headed to Belfast to speak, you're headed to Florida to speak. Give us just a little quick insight into where you're speaking next, where people can hear you.

Speaker 1 (47:02)
Yeah, you bet. I'm going to a great new conference called the Galt Business Technology Conference in Belfast, which is totally cool. A great line of speakers, including our very own Jay Karen and many others. I'm going to be doing a session there called How to Create an Innovative Team. And really, Mike, it'll be around how do we get our team members to embrace this technology that we're asking them to do?

You know change is hard right yes So change is hard and and change can be scary and you know how many times I've heard the I've heard We've got too many things on our plate this year to implement a new process, right? Okay, all right all right

Speaker 2 (47:45)
Right. Well,

hopefully Aboo has a good conference there. We're rooting for him. We think it's cool that he's covering technology. So you're headed to Florida as well, I think.

Speaker 1 (47:57)
doing a

road show with the great Florida chapter of the CMAA and I'll be going from four different cities in Florida where all the club managers come together. It's their twice a year road show and I'm doing that in May which I'm excited about. And then I'll be at the Golf Inc Summit in Vegas in September and maybe I'm probably a couple other places in the meantime. I always look, I would love people to reach out to me to talk about anything to do with the club world.

Certainly when it comes to health and safety, risk management, you know, I consider our staff training platform a form of risk management, right? Having your staff trained, having your staff knowledgeable, having the checks and balances that go on to make it happen, to me is all part of having a business that is protected to be the best so you can make money, so that you can focus your time on taking care of the customer and the golfer and maximizing your revenue.

Speaker 2 (48:57)
and close that leaky bucket, so to speak, right? Yeah, exactly. Well, listen, James, thanks for coming on. It's been great getting to know you, and I'm looking forward to staying in touch for years to come. So thank you so much for coming on the Tech Caddie podcast, and safe travels wherever you are headed the next several months.

Speaker 1 (49:17)
Thanks, Mike, so much. Look, I love what you do. I think your website, your services, your Switzerland-esque level of communicating and educating operators on technology is incredibly important because technology, as you know, is changing and developing so fast that operators need viable resources to gather information to help them figure out.

all these different paths, what's right for me, what's not right for me, where, who's the right partner, et cetera, et cetera. So I love what you're doing. Thanks for having me on. And I look forward to having you back on my podcast one day in the near future.

Speaker 2 (49:57)
Well, that'll be great. Thanks, James.

Speaker 1 (49:59)
Thanks, Mike. Bye.

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