Welcome to the Tech Caddie podcast, Don Rea and Don, if I may, you are the vice president of the PGA of America. In my world, I think maybe more importantly, you own a golf course, you own Augusta Ranch Golf Club, and I just hold all you owners and operators in really high regard. So I want to make sure that we say that. You've got your own podcast with Jay Karen from the NGCOA.

And certainly you've I think you've done a an amazing job of serving also the NGCOA you know before the the PGA of America so welcome to the the podcast and Really appreciate you carving out some time for everybody today. Yeah, no doubt Mike You know we've known each other for a long time and you know, I think everybody in the golf industry You know, we kind of just hang out there because just an awesome industry to be in and then we end up wearing different hats But I am looking forward to talking to you today. Thanks for having me on

Yes, absolutely. So you mentioned that we've known each other for a long time. I don't think I've ever told you this story. Here's how I got introduced to who Don Rea was. I came into work one day and for people that don't know that was way back in the day that was GolfNow I came into work one day and somebody said, how did Don get into the back end of IMuS? And I thought, what has happened here? And so for people that don't know, IMuS was this was the name of the operating system.

that we used at GolfNow and different operators over the years figured out different back doors and whatnot. And you didn't really use a back door, but you had learned how to change some of the text in the listing. And it was actually, it was very helpful for me because it was one of the introductions for me of understanding really the business that I was in and how what we did impacted owner operators and that type of thing. So that was my first introduction to Don Rea.

Well, hey, you know what, at least it wasn't too bad. I mean, in those days, things were changing, you know, after Brett sold and then, and I was always in the back to iMUS. I was changing my rates all the time. Let's be honest, that technology was revolutionary. I mean, I was changing rates based on demand with no booking curve knowledge whatsoever, just looking at days and times. And so I did utilize that software a lot.

It's kind of cool. You know, I guess you and I, we didn't realize how far ahead of the curve we really were when all that stuff was happening. I have young professionals now come and say, hey, Don, did you know this? And I'm like, oh, dude, you don't even know the scar tissue I have of when I suffered through those early days of pricing tee times differently based on the time of the day and how that, you know, the old people at Augusta Ranch, my senior citizens, my winter visitors, you know, who played were like, why is that price different? I'm like,

because it's more valuable. And yeah, so yeah, we were, we were ahead of the curve, brother. GolfNow is a, is a interesting business in that we learned so much from a very specific customer set. We did not learn a lot from the operator where I live. Like I live in, in the Midwest, I live in Columbus, Ohio. We didn't learn a lot from those customers, but man, did we learn a lot from watching people in the Valley, like they say, where you, you know, in, in that, in that greater Scottsdale Phoenix area.

And we watched you guys manually go in and, you know, every afternoon, some guys did it twice a day and massage those rates and really learn how to, you were really managing your tee sheet in an electronic sense or in a digital sense. And we learned so much from watching you guys, which ultimately led to building some of the dynamic pricing tools that I built and et cetera, et cetera. But it really did ultimately like it always does came from the operator. It was the operator that showed us the way, if you will.

Well, to your point, you know, when you sign the fronts of these checks, you're just a little more vested in the success of the facility, you know, and you're like, man, these little changes can can maybe send Katie to college, these little changes could maybe send me to Hawaii with my wife, right. And so exactly right. It did it. It was hand to hand combat back then. You know, you had to do it. Nothing was automated. And but you just knew it was working. And so, yeah, you know, even though we've kind of been on opposite sides of the argument sometimes at the end of the day.

You know, golf is thriving right now and I'll still challenge GolfNow and the guys over there, you know, with maybe some of their practices, it's all good. You know, I think at the end of the day, we were in just foreign land. Nobody knew what to do with the barter. Nobody knew what to do with what time should barter be and what the impact could be. And, you know, I think guys like you and I, we were just trying to educate everybody like.

Hey, there is an impact, good and bad. Make sure you build a relationship that's mutual beneficial. Right. Don, when did you come to own Augusta Ranch? Well, you know, I will let me give you some context of that because some people have said, well, Don, do you really own it now? What happened is, you know, I, we bought it back in 2008. I had some investors and it was one of those things that became available. And, uh, and, and a buddy of mine, when I, he umpired with me, he was one of my umpire buddies.

When I left, I became a member of the PGA of America. When he left, he got his CFP and worked for Charles Schwab. And so they had put together this private equity fund that was buying small businesses in Arizona. And he's like, hey, maybe they'll buy Augusta Ranch. And I'm like, hey, dude, let's do this. And I could have a sweat equity position. And so that's what happened. We bought a business called the Celebrity Theater, which is a really cool concert venue here in town. And there was a couple other companies. And it was just bricks and mortar investment for these private equity investors.

And so the idea was that I would buy it from the equity fund after, you know, 10 years, there was like a 10 year fund on that. But then what happened is, um, it became challenging. Trump got elected and all of a sudden the market was taken off and they're like, Hey, man we don't know if we want to give you this long -term loan at a low interest rate. I'm like, well, that's not good. And so that's when I actually we're like, okay, we're going to sell it, you know, get some liquidity event on that, but who are we going to sell it to? I was going to put some investors together and then it was going to be very complicated. And I met a.

PGA professional who said, why don't you get the community to buy it and then you lease it back? And I didn't really understand how that worked. And so, you know, when I say I own Augusta Ranch, it would be like, Mike, if you and I owned a restaurant in a strip mall, is it our restaurant? Yes. Is it our staff? Yes. Is it our profit and losses? Yes. Does somebody own the building? Is there a landlord? Yeah, we pay a landlord every month to have the building.

You can do the same thing with the golf course. So technically, if you look at it, I said, do I actually own Augusta Ranch, the property in and of itself? No, I own the business of Augusta Ranch. And so that's sometimes complicated. People don't understand it. But I think in certain respects, especially with an HOA who, you know, they understand reserve studies, they understand asset value, they understand that.

the do share responsibility they have to the homeowners. But as a businessman, I can do it. Yeah. So if it's 2008, it's really the same time that I joined GolfNow that we so I was with Last Minute Golfer, which really didn't have a presence too much where you were. But Last Minute Golfer was acquired by Comcast after GolfNow was acquired in that 2008 era. OK, so one of the things that we love to do on this podcast is talk to operators such as yourself.

about what you're using. I think there's great value in op, you know, the there's somebody in Indiana watching, right? And they just want to know, like, well, what's that guy using? What's this person using? What's that? I think there's value in that. That's why we have the golf course technology reviews site. We're trying to make it easier for operators to get their hands on information so that they can learn about technology, see what people are using, etc, etc. So we call it what's in the bag.

you know, very, take it from Golf Digest, why not? And but it's but it's for you. It's what technology are you using? Are you using to run your golf course? So let's go down a list. Like what's your what's your point of sale? Point of sale is club profit. Okay, profit systems club profit. And and so then I'm gonna guess that your tee sheet as well or maybe not actually in your case. No, you know club profit. That's one of the things when

you know, I talked to Tom, you know, back in the day and I and I said who owned who owned it one time for profit, then he sold it. But right. Was I'd like to I liked what was going on when you know, when Brett set out as non compete, he came back with everybody. That's Brett Darrow when when when Don says Brett, he means Brett Darrow. Go ahead. Yeah. So So yeah, when he started quick 18, I had taken this class in revenue management at Cornell University to understand.

I think right. Yeah, it was great. It was expensive, but it was worth it. In my opinion, I was able to apply all that except golf. So anyways, quick 18 obviously turned into sagacity golf. And so I've just enjoyed the tool. I the back end is a little complicated, but once you figure it out, it's awesome. And so I really, I really liked it. So any point of sale company, Mike, that I've got, I'm like, Hey, you have to interface with sagacity, especially now because all of my historical booking curves.

for every tee time over the last five, six, seven, eight years is in there. Which is great knowledge for the engine. But we are talking tee sheet just for a moment, right? Yeah, so club profit, point of sale, interfaces with the the Sagacity GolfNow, you know, it's called, well, not GolfNow, it's Sagacity Golf. It's called that now. It was called Quick 18.

But, uh, yeah, yeah. So that's my tee sheets and they actually well, and so that's your booking engine. So sagacity is also your booking engine for people that don't know. Don's booking engine is one of the booking engines that we use when we rated all the booking engines in golf. We actually got deep into your, your particular tee times. Don, I know I had some back and forth with you about add on sales that that particular booking engine can support. So, you know, some people reached out to me and said,

Wow. Did you talk to operators? Yes, we talked to operators. We interviewed operators. So, so tee sheet is sagacity, then booking engine is sagacity. So like, what do you do website wise? Well, 1-2-1 Marketing built my website. Okay. Um, and then actually we have, well, I'll let you go through the questions. Well, websites 1-2-1 you're probably then going to talk app, which I think is also sagacity.

App is sagacity, mainly because I really love their golf cash feature, man. This golf cash thing, and I read about Starbucks and everything that's going on, and obviously, you know, but I owned a golf, I owned a gift card company called Go Play Golf Gift Card. Yes, you did, yes. Yeah, that we sold, we had a good money, a good dollar amount on that, and we sold it before I became secretary. Still breakage I understand how that works, and obviously it's different in every state, but this Starbucks story,

of what they do with their gift card money. And then, you know, them sagacity figuring out this golf cash. We have a lot of it's our cheapest. You know, when I figure in what I have to give the sagacity golf to use golf cash, all the loads that happen in some of the, you know, you put in $200, we give you 220. But if you calculate back in, you know, actually what people don't use because they forget about it or whatever the breakage is, it is my least expensive tender option right now. It's lower than credit cards.

I mean, cash is cash, but not many people do cash anymore. But considering a lot of people do credit cards now, because of the breakage on golf cash, it's my least expensive tender option. So that's why I use the app. I think that I think there's some really cool apps out there, but the integration with golf cash is is a must for me. You know, you you you're a guy that always knows your numbers. I feel like every time I've ever had like a real conversation with you, I walk away thinking like maybe he was an accountant in his past life.

You know you were a baseball umpire and and I'm certainly quoted as saying those are the last people getting into heaven So I just want to throw that out there, but But but but you did transition from umpire into the end of PGA tell a little bit about the whole umpire world like yeah We're a minor league umpire. I think yeah, you know just like a player you go up through the minor league system an amateur umpire and professional umpire are completely different the guys who do the college world series They're not in professional baseball

They're not going to be in the in the big league someday. No, they're not. That home plate guy has performed in Omaha. He's definitely not going to majors. Okay. So now some of those guys are my friends because they were in the minor leagues with me and then they, they went over when they didn't make it to the big leagues. They went to the college world series. And so I, I'm always going to defend the umpire, but you do, you go through like a player. So, you know, I went rookie ball, a ball, double -a, triple -a did a lot of major league spring training games.

and just didn't get the call to the big leagues, never did a regular season game, which is kind of, you know, you just want to do one, right? Like in the baseball almanac, right? Like an at-bat for a player, right? If you just have one app that in the big leagues, you're you were in the big leagues. I never did a regular season game, which is kind of a bummer. But I would tell you this.

I know you're hating on the umpires and I get all the angel Hernandez and I know these guys. I everybody's do you do you say about him on Twitter? I am brutal. I mean, I he has Las Diaz to Don. I work with last I worked with last in AAA. I work with CB Buckner and Laz Diaz. I was on a crew with them for a couple months, but I will say this just know this everybody makes mistakes. Nobody loves baseball. Mike. Nobody loves baseball more than an umpire because why would you do it?

Why would you put your helps to this brain damage of getting yelled at every day if you didn't love the game so much you just want to see it played in an equitable manner and by the rules and let the best team win. Now sometimes calls go one way and they go another way and you know I see those calls just like you do but you know I also know that I didn't get every call right in my 1300 baseball games that I umpired in the minor leagues so just know that as much as you might hate them nobody loves baseball more than an umpire because otherwise they wouldn't do the job.

Are you a fan of like umpire scorecard these two accounts that are on Twitter? Have you ever seen them and they yeah, yeah all the data from the day before I think those things are amazing but you know, I wish I would have had it, you know how many times like like, you know, you get into the after the game you get the locker room like man that three two pitch I thought it was a good pitch now they can pull up that pitch and see if it was a strike or not. I mean how much faster you'd get how much better you'd get and faster right? I could see those five pitches.

What you're in triple -A bro, you know what you're doing, but there's probably five pitches that they kind of give you a second look about or the catcher holds it for a second longer. And you're like, if I can look at those five pitches and go, Oh man, I got that right, dude. He's given me a lot of junk on that pitch, but that was a good pitch or like, well, I went a little too far on that outside corner. I'll reel it in next time. So I do think I'm, I'm all for that because if you look at Joe West, everybody didn't like Joe West, right? Country Joe West.

You look at the last plate job of his entire career, which was a game right before the playoff started with the Dodgers and he got almost every pitch right. I somebody actually had a perfect game and the minor leagues, young umpires have grown up with this system. So they're really good. Now we didn't, you know, the strike zone in the minor leagues was like shock therapy, Mike. It was like, you called it to strike and they'd be like, whoa. And you go, okay, I guess I can't go there. You know, but now look at Joe West's last game on that website and you'll see that.

This guy had 30 years in the big leagues and nailed it on his last plate job. I got to give it to him. You know, the data that you can get from umpire scorecard and similar is stuff that I wish operators could have on just the date the next day. Right. How great would it be if you could just get a roll up of this is exactly how everything performed yesterday. We're starting to see you. I'm sure you're familiar with with Metolius, right? We're starting to see some of this stuff come on.

I wish it was happening 10 years ago, right? I just think if the more data that we can get to operators to show them how they're performing the better. I'm curious to know, how do you look at that? What are you looking at at the end of the week, at the end of the day? What's the data that Don Rea cares about the most when you analyze the performance of your business? Yeah, you know, I've traveled so much.

now, you know, that, you know, that everything's pretty much delegated at Augusta Ranch but certainly there's numbers I look at. And I will tell you this about the numbers. To me, those numbers, it's like blood work. Some people don't want to know their blood work, Mike, they just they don't go to the doctor. They don't care. They're like, I feel good. You know, everything's good. But maybe their blood work would tell them, hey, you're a little low on iron, and you could do this and maybe you could lose 10 pounds, you know, blood pressure and all these things.

don't you wanna know that if you wanna live forever? And I think as a golf course owner operator, why wouldn't you know some of this data? To ignore it is just to ignore possibly a problem. But hey, I feel really good today, so what's the sense? The one I don't know if ten years ago anybody cared about their blood work, bro. I was trying to tell people and it certainly helped me at Augusta Ranch because I felt that was my competitive advantage over the big management companies of the world is I was gonna know my numbers. You know what I look at now? I do look at,

you know, that operations benchmark that, uh, that's Sagacity does. I want to know, you know, what's my channel mix - Where's everybody coming? I do want to know, um, you know, what's my ADR. I want to know what my RevPar is. I really do want to see, I think ADR, if you can examine it and I can measure it and that's great, but knowing exactly how I'm utilizing the entire tee -sheet with RevPar is very important to me. So really that's what I'm kind of looking at ADR RevPar I'm looking at utilization and I'm looking at occupancy.

And how am I managing that against my competitive reach set? You know, to me, Don, you're in a competitive market, right? There's no question about it. I think an interesting one, especially in a market like yours is, well, but how many people did I get to the app or how many people did I get to the website? Like if the majority of your tee time sell digitally, well, then it matters how many eyeballs you put on that inventory. Right. And then I think the next one that is so obvious once you're in that world is.

And then how did that booking engine convert? Right. Does my booking engine convert in a way that one is comparable to my neighbors, but two, like it converts it in a way that I'm not worried that there's so much friction in my booking engine. I'm actually scaring people off or scaring them back to the phone or, or something like that. Certainly we know there are marketplaces and not necessarily tee times, but, but could be there are marketplaces that are difficult to navigate.

and it will scare the consumer away. The consumer will ultimately, you know, find another solution. And so I think that that's an important metric. I wish more PGA pros today knew how their booking engine converted. And then frankly, what's good? Like what is a good, you know, booking engine conversion number? I think that's an important one. Yeah, absolutely. You know, and even now, the whole reason I put in 21 Toptracer bays right, was to be my own funnel. I'm like, I got to get people from the restaurant to the range to the first tee

Amen. And that's what I have to do. And now those things don't talk relatively well. I can't follow a customer from the restaurant to the range to the first tee. And I really need that. And I talked to Club prophet about that. And we've looked at other point of sales, too, just like, OK, we now know that there's more golfers off the golf course than on the golf course. That's a fact. The NGF, no one's disputing the numbers. So how am I going to track it? Is somebody playing golf? And are they playing more?

You know, one of the things that really works on what I use with Sagacity or quick 18, are these automatic emails that trigger. If you've played once in the last year, but haven't played in 30 days, it pings you a little email that says, hey, you haven't seen you in 30 days. Here's the promo code if you want to book it. And that promo code expires in seven days. And if they don't use it, in 60 days they get an email, 90 days. So I feel like, okay, these people who are trying to become latent golfers, I'm reeling them back in a little bit. If money was the,

hindrance of them playing. I don't know, but there's the promo code. But to your point, we can do so much better. I'm excited about Metolius and even with, you know, what the Pellucid is doing with the GMRC. I'm excited about somehow better understanding where are these people based on whether and all these other deals. But man, I need some software, brother, that can show me from the, you know, but you never went Teesnap You gotta get it to Brian.

You know, Teesnap they were tracking customers by the credit card number. I don't see many point of sellers who do that. But then you knew if somebody was using that same credit card in your restaurant, you could see what buying habits were happening and who were actually your biggest spenders. And then you could maybe convert people into bigger spenders based on, you know, whatever targeted emails or app notifications. Yeah. Now another way to skin that cat is, is just have a great loyalty program.

Right. And so then the consumer wants to participate in it. It actually makes them a little more trackable. I believe and be curious to hear your thoughts. That's probably the next frontier in golf tech is really strong loyalty programs or reward for whatever you want to call it. I don't know today that we're as an industry as strong as we could be when it when it comes to that.

Yeah, you know what I think? You know, some of it is that before COVID, right, loyalty programs were discount programs. Yes. Like, OK, I'm going to make you loyal to me, and that's great. And I think it is a little different now because what we found is that, I mean, even GolfNow, they told me all the time, people play three to five golf courses. That's what they do. They're not going to be monogamous. I mean, as much as you want them to be, they're going to play a few of their golf courses. And that's fine. But I think loyalty programs now have to be a little bit different.

don't commoditize the relationship. I mean, recognizing their birthday, their anniversaries, when they come saying thank you for playing. I think it's more now of involving a social media campaign, not just emails and text messages, but entire, tracking people through social media, understanding where they're at, knowing that they're also your followers. I mean, if we ever bridge this gap, that I know how many of my followers, how many people in my database, maybe on my loyalty program, are they following me on Instagram?

Cause for instance, one of the things I tell people all the time is if you have the same Instagram or Facebook account for your golf course and your restaurant, huge mistake because restaurant people are restaurant people, golf people are golf people and top tracer people are top tracer people. I have three social media campaigns. Buckets is top tracer. Scratch Pub and Grill is the restaurant. Augusta Ranch is the golf course.

But what am I seeing in my database and who's following me because that's where my relationship, my loyalty program is happening on social media. But none of these guys are talking. If that ever came, they'll figure this out eventually. But man, then I could engage a true loyalty program with a relationship built on Instagram and then getting people at the golf course for fun events. Agreed. Tell me about on course experience.

And maybe that's not exactly right terminology. Are you tracking where golfers are at any given moment on your, on your golf course and then thereby your tracking pace of play, et cetera, et cetera. Is that a metric that you all are dialed into? No, you know, we, you know, there's a company called IZON that I really like. We almost pulled the trigger on them, but there was so much going on at Augusta ranch. We didn't do it, but you know what, uh, what Tim Mumble and Kurt Albertson that are doing, I really am excited about because you can do just that.

and I can see where they're at in the facility. So maybe you look at Augusta Ranch and go, why would a short course want a GPS system? Okay, easy. It's not just yardage anymore. It's knowing where people are at and engaging them, you know, on the eight pole on the 17th hole, you know, geo -fencing your location. So you're when they're driving by, they're like, hey, why don't you make it right there into the restaurant and have a have a soda, right? So no, I'm not doing it as much. But I think there's so many options out there. I love to the app that I have, and there's really good apps out there.

If they're engaged in the app, I think I can see that. That's a good question. I don't fully know the answer to that. I'd have to talk to Sagacity. But if someone's engaging on the app and using it as the GPS, I have a feeling I kind of know where they're at. But I'm not that deep into Big Brother, but IZON pretty cool. I like what he's doing. Okay, good to know. Talk a little bit about credit card. Are you a surcharge guy? Are you a, no, that's just the cost of doing business. How are you all? What's the cost? cost?

technology are you using to manage your credit card business as well as you possibly can? What's your, what's your approach there? You know, it's just what, what's a club profits allow me to use, which is pay rock, right? And we're utilizing that, um, you know, what's funny on the top tracer side, use the square, the tablet software of square is so user friendly for our beverage cart person that that's literally what we're using for top tracer. We, you know, we're pumping about three grand a day through that square app. And.

That's not exactly the best credit card rate in the world, but user friendly lies. It's just making it really easy for the customer and our staff to utilize. But it's pay rock. I don't manage it too much. Going back to Top Tracer. When they come to you, is Square some preferred provider or is it just something that you kind of figure out on your own?

A top tracer, you know, really, I'll actually meet with Chip Brewer at the Masters in a month just to talk about. Not to drop any names or any events. Just to say how much, you know, we're trying. Guys like you and I, we try to get to the decision makers and say, hey, if these things talk a little bit more, I think I could make it all sticky. Like, I'm there at the golf course. I can see what the consumer's doing. I see the brands they use, the top tracer people, what clubs are using, the clubs they don't have, and, you know, maybe put them into a Callaway rental set.

But all of this data, no, a top tracer doesn't say, they're like, hey man, there's the monitor, we're gonna track the balls for you, have fun, you're gonna kill it, which we are. But on a point of sale, no, you're looking at your point of sale company to help you with top tracer. They're trying to figure this out, because there's not that many out there, right? I mean, but no, that's why we fell into squares, because I had the account, it was easier. Now I've got to take that square, the outside server or the food and beverage individual has to ring that stuff up and go to our point of sale.

to track the difference between what was a top tracer sale and what was a food and beverage sale. But no, it's still the Wild Wild West, brother. I can't get any solution. I think there's some point of sales out there figuring out whether it's TenFore Golf, Lightspeed or Club Caddie what's the name of that company? Club Caddie yeah. Love those guys. But we're actually gonna do a deep dive into all those different point of sales to make sure, do we have the best? Because now I don't need a point of sale to count some money.

I need a point of sale that's measuring interactions with my consumers and utilizing the top tracer funnel that I've created to make sure I'm getting them on the first tee Right. Talk a little bit about, if you would, the PGA of America and its relationship with technology. You can maybe give us some background here, but certainly the PGA of America is now part of a fund where you all can invest some dollars in different startups and that type of thing. Sometimes they're technology decisions. Sometimes they're not.

right? Sometimes it has nothing to do with technology. But just from a, you know, a viewpoint, if you would, from the PGA of America, where is the PGA of America as it relates to operating tech? How much do you guys talk about it? How intimately involved are you? Yeah, I think the PGA has figured out that, you know, for us to start creating our own technology is not a good idea. You know, I mean, you got to be an entrepreneur for that. You got to be nimble. You got to be hungry.

And as an association, we're just, you know, we're just bigger. It's just things. We're not going to be very nimble. And that's that's OK. Sure. But we are committed to making sure the 30 ,000 PGA members have resources that could help them. It's not I don't think anybody. It's a secret that it would have been nice for the PGA. America to get involved in tee -Times a long time ago. But it didn't happen. And all of a it became a little crazy out there. You look at guys like Operation 36. Wow, that's amazing. Look at Golf Tech and what Joe Assell has done.

What if the PGA would have been involved at the very foundation of those ideas and really created them as resources for our members and tools? So that's what it is. The Innovation Fund. So the PGA of America has got a reserve fund because, hey, we're big in association and there's scary things out there. There's existential threats like LIV and PIF and everything else that's going on. So we have a healthy reserve fund that's our rainy day fund, but we take a percent to that. It's about $15 million. And you're exactly right, Mike. We...

we try to invest into companies that can have impact in four categories really. What's the impact on our member? If we invest in this, will it help our member? Will it affect the golf industry at large? Is this something about water or recyclables, renewables, things like that? Could it help us there? Is it a good return on investment? Hey, it's always nice to make a little more money. The more money we have, the more money we could do to grow the game and serve our member. And then really just the final one is just overall, is this good for

the world. You know what it says? We're trying to think globally here. And so we measure each one of those investments. And so, yeah, that's what we try to do. I don't think we're ever going to create anything because we're just not nimble enough, like I said. But could we, if we did find some startups and we're like, well, that's kind of interesting, could this help the member eventually and we can give them a little encouragement, a little arm around the shoulder and say, hey, we got you. Let's see how you can do. I think that's a cool thing for us to do with our Reserve Fund. I think it's actually a

I think it's our fiduciary responsibility to help the industry because we do. We are very lucky to have the writer kept in the PGA championship and agree fuels our engine. Agreed, agreed. Talk a little bit about your role with the NGCOA. Maybe it's not a, you know, like you said, you're not on the board today, but certainly you were and you've been a member of the NGCOA for a long time. I feel like that's an organization that maybe does get a little more intimately involved in technology. It's important, right? They,

the NGCOA wants to be able to chime in on if this is effective or if that's effective, et cetera. Talk a little bit about that and where that organization is as it relates to operating tech. Well, you know, it's interesting, right? I mean, PGA for America, we're a big association, largest sports organization in the world. And yet we don't own any jobs. I mean, we don't PGA golf club, but that's it. A lot of some of our members are owners like me and, and, and we're general managers and things like that. But.

The NGCOA, you know, being on their board was very eye opening to me because, you know, one, these are owners, they are signing the front of the check. It's important to them. Is the P &L important? Absolutely. But the asset and what's the legacy of that, whether they're giving it to their family or, you know, liquidity of that somewhere down the line. Or if their family gave it to them. Right. So it was so emotionally and I think it's great, but they're so emotionally attached because they know that

my god, my grandfather built this place. Like I have to do right by this, you No doubt. So you know, where some of our education is to get new members in and bring them in, you know, that's a big deal. The NGCOA is about, okay, what are they, you know, they're doing a SWOT analysis every day about the industry. So what's the threat? Credit card, what's going on with credit card fees out there? Are POS is making, you only stick with one company. That's scary. Legislative advocacy.

Amazing what they do on that. I mean, I was just on a seminar before I got on with you about the Department of Labor and what they're doing with the independent contractor status. That's certainly something that Jay and that board of directors and now Kathy Harbin, the president, they say, we've to get involved in this. Doing white papers on barter and explaining to everybody, you know, how barter could be really good or barter could be really super bad. Protecting your rate integrity right? So I really love what the industry always can do. They're very nimble. They don't have a lot of money, so they're very aggressive on

How about that? They did in a four day span, Mike, they did a two day conference on technology. It was awesome. Gideon Hughes spoke at it. And then they did a two day summit on the Colorado River Basin and lower Colorado River and what they did in a water summit. Amazing speakers. So I love how nimble they are. They really get issue based because they're not so big that they can get lost in it all.

that they focus on specific items they think are threatening their own golf course, which I think it's awesome. Now, I think the challenge there, and now I'm really getting out of my depth, so I should qualify that. But the challenge there is, you know, are entrepreneurs today predisposed to being members of associations? I don't know if they are as much as maybe they were 20 years ago. I think maybe a lot of people feel like, well, there's so much information at my fingertips. Maybe I don't need to be a member of an association. I'm not sure that's good because I think.

knowing what I know about the industry over the last 20 years, there are times that you really do want the strength of numbers. So I'm not so sure that's good that that maybe people don't join. But times do change, right? I mean, people evolve and entrepreneurs evolve. And it's, it's, I guess, just sometimes a sign of the times. Well, you know, I mean, my daughter's in college, right? And I told her the first day, I told her honey, study groups, get in study groups, get in study groups, get in study groups, because

It's just going to make you feel better if you're struggling with something. You're co -optively working together to come up with that solution and you're building a cohort team that you're going to know for the rest of your life. And she's at Bowdoin, it's a very challenging school up there in Maine, and yet she's excelling because she's built this family around her of people. That's what associations, if they keep their heads straight and they don't become corporate, if they stick to the association, whether that's PGA for America and the 30 ,000 or whatever the 4 ,000 the NGCOA has,

I hope that people understand that you can only watch so many YouTube videos. You got to be face to face, whether it's Zoom or you and I in person. These conferences are important because when you get there, you're having a cocktail or coffee with somebody and you're saying, Hey, this is what I did. They're like, Oh, you should look into this. Now when you caution fake news, okay, great. I, you can't even watch these different things that are out there because you don't know what to believe. But if I'm sitting next to you, Mike, and you're like, John, you're missing the boat. I'm going go, okay, I'll dive into that.

So I hope that people understand if you try to do this business alone, I don't think you're going to make it. You might get your diploma, but you're going to suffer, man. Why wouldn't you get involved in associations? Whether that's PGA for America or the NGCOA or the CMAA or the LPGA, all of those different associations out there, why wouldn't you get involved with other people who are like -minded so that you can get that study group and there's more power in people, which by the way, we'll hope it was the legislators who don't know that we're small business owners and we're...

trying to grow the game. You know, that's this PGA Tour thing. That's why it's like I've told a lot of people, listen, they play for millions. We get millions to play. This is who we are. So if you're a legislator, don't think that we're that, that 1 % of the 1 % that plays for a living. We work for a living. And that makes us different than the other associations, all of us that are collectively, you know, really at the grassroots level trying to grow this game.

I thought I saw your episode, uh, you and Jay with Nancy Mace. And I, and I thought that that was, it was really good because you know, I think that she, I actually, I think that she was fairly well coached up and ready for that. But you were clearly making the point to her of the number of small businesses that we're talking about here, the impact on the economy. I thought you guys did a really, uh, nice job of that. And it's nice to see that there's a golf caucus now, right? That, that it, that there is some advancement there.

And hopefully that bears fruit for all golf course owners. Well, it's a voice, right? I mean, we're still on the sin list. I mean, that's not good. The sin list is this, if there's ever federal money for a natural disaster that doesn't go to tanning beds, like strip clubs and golf courses, how do we get on the sin list? Yeah. And so you're right. I mean, we just have to educate people. And understand, remember, 91 out of 100 Americans do not play golf. I mean, that's right. Isn't that crazy? And so legislators, there's a 90 % chance they don't play golf. So if they don't understand,

You know that we're the biggest, we have more to charity than all the other major league professional sports combined. We're writing gifts, it gets all the time, helping little girls, dads who have cancer. I mean, we were very, very philanthropic and you know, in golf And so they don't know we're small business owners and we're just regular people. Um, then when these discussions happen, whatever they might be independent contractor, property tax, sales tax, you know, whatever it might be losing your not for profit status, you know, these are scary things for us because we know that we,

that golf's the engine of good. And that we're the drivers of that car, right? Yeah, I do think I thought you guys did make a good point on that, on that episode too, when there is a natural disaster that golf courses, those properties are not taken care of that. That's, yeah, that's obviously disappointing because, uh, geez, I don't know how many you employ, but a full -size golf course, let's say in Illinois, it's not unheard of to have a hundred employees during the high season. So, uh, yeah, that, that was a bit concerning for sure. Yeah, no doubt. I mean, we, yeah, there's a lot of shops. I mean, if you look at the state of Arizona,

Uh, you know, I mean, have a $4 billion economic impact to the state. Right. It's less than less than 2 % of the water. So, you know, Hey, we're being good stewards of the resources and we believe we create. Small business, small business to hire people and hire people, good community citizens, you know, done talking about employees and getting back to technology some, what do you do when you hire new employees?

what are you doing to help them learn how to use Club Profit? Is that something that Club Profit's really good at and they've got this program for new hires at golf courses? Or is it something that is a challenge? Because I wanted to talk about gaps that operators suffer from today in tech. And I have felt like that's a gap, that the ability to onboard employees more quickly to use the technology is something that I do think some operators struggle with. But I'd be curious to know what you...

do with Augusta Ranch to address that situation? Yeah, that's a good topic for me because it's, you know, I think a couple of things that operators do wrong and I've done it is that you get new software, right? And they go, okay, we're going to install your software, it's going to take three or four days, we're going to move all the merchandise over, move the tee times over, it's going to be fine. And we're going to have some staff there to train you. And then there's an option to have them stay a little bit longer. And none of us do that option. But like, no, no, no, we got to figure it out. We'll train the staff. But what happens is,

is I have my own understanding of the software. Now I'm training somebody on what I know. And I didn't develop this software. I don't know everything. It's like me. You know, my wife, she does it. She's awesome. I use this iPhone as the most amazing device I've ever had in my life. She uses it what pertains to her, that she does amazing things on it, right? But if you knew everything that this thing could do.

you'd be like, wow, I could do this, I could do that. I mean, when I watch those little videos about the hacks that I thought, did you know that your phone could do this? This is what happens, Mike, is I train somebody on my own inherent unconscious biases, and then they train somebody, and then they train somebody. Once your software has been in place for two, three, four years, the training aspect is diluted down to all you know is what you know. And the software companies, if I was them, I'd create small, short product knowledge tests.

where I could send one of my employees in, as soon as they get hired, watch some short videos, answer five questions. If you fail the test, take it again immediately. And then they get little certificates that kick back to me saying, this employee has watched this software. Then they're getting trained by the people who know what the software does. Instead, two, three years down the line, you're like, this software sucks. It's not doing what I want it to do. But it turned out you don't know what you don't know.

And yeah, so I'm in product knowledge tests all the time, right? Everybody had to take and it told me that you took the test. Now they do it for me. That's ultimately. Yeah. So ultimately the churn is not the responsibility of the engineer so much. It's the support team, right? Or the, the, the, that really there should be a learning management system out there that helps everybody stay engaged with the techs. Clearly there's updates that come out with tech. And I agree with you. I think there is a gap.

Titleist does this, right? Titleist, Callaway, they come up with a new ball. If you're on staff, you have to go to the website and take the test of what's, why's the new Pro V1 one better. And then they know right away that you did that so you can stay on staff. You can do the same thing at a golf course, but I'm not going to come up with the test in the software, bro. I got no time for that. Right. But the software companies built these small little tests when a new update came or, you know, and I can incentivize people, hey, if you do this, after you get certified, you know, I'll give you 50 bucks in golf cash and you can.

and do something at the golf course, or all, you know, send them to the movies or something. I think there's great ways for me to incentivize the staff to become better at the software. And maybe these young people, because this is the problem, is an old guy training the new guy and the young person on the software, and I don't know that software. I have, once again, an unconscious bias of what I know. They might exploit that software to a level that I'm like, wow, I had no idea that could even happen, right? But we're not challenging the younger staff with some really cool product knowledge testing.

Right. That I think would blow their minds. I had a tee sheet demo the other day and they certainly they can do squeeze times. But one thing I saw them teach this prospect was they like to hold back tee times until there's only 40 hours left because they know what dynamic pricing they can get more for them. So it was interesting to watch the engineer explain to the operator. Now, you know, there's ways you can actually block your sheet intentionally.

because we know you'll make more money if you can hold back, et cetera. And it was an interesting lesson to go through and kind of watch some light bulbs go off. But you wonder how many more people would be trained on that if they did buy this tech and then a new crew comes in six months later. I don't know that they're going to that level of depth in the training. You know, it's funny is I think what's happening across the nation is you've got people working the counter because I'm telling everybody the golf course should be on the golf course, right?

Maybe you have just an entry -level person who's running the running the point of sale because they're pretty simple now, right? And once you throw busy they start feeling the pressure I know this happens they're blocking tee times not to drive up the price of the other tee times But to give themselves a starting time so it's not so crazy out there. Oh, yeah, that's happening, too Oh my goodness, but remember everybody who's working now?

You know, they're not used to wait lists. You know, I know Gallus Golf has got this wait list opportunity and, you know, and, uh, notify. I love that notify software. I think Jake's done a good job with that, but that's what's happened, right? Is everybody who's working in the industry now, or maybe in the last five years, if they were pre COVID, it wasn't that busy. So you never really worried about wait lists. Like right now you need the person who worked 15 years ago, who knows that a wait list is like, it's okay to have somebody hit balls and you call them, call their name to the beat.

That's right. When you used to do that, don't do that anymore, bro. They don't do it. And there's some technology that can automate it, but that used to be free money. Somebody waiting to see if the time would open and then they would go home because nothing did, but you got a large bucket out of them. I mean, that's exactly. Yeah, exactly. Well, listen, I really do appreciate your time. You're super busy. I would, I do have a question. When do you become the president? I don't know if everybody knows, but the, the, the vice president will become the president. When do you become the president?

of the people of It's kind of an educational track if I think about it. It's like, you know, when you get elected secretary for two years, you focus on membership stuff. And then when you're elected vice president, automatically you win by acclamation. Now it's budget audit, you know, innovation fund, like we talked about, investment committee, you chair those. Yes, November, the first week of November, I'll become the president. I'll be president for two years. And, you know, after this four years of training,

I know that, uh, you know, you can't train for live and tiff and all these other crazy things, but you definitely know who the member is. You know what our intentions are. You know where our financial situation is and you can be the best president you can be. So I'm super excited for November, but right now I'll just be the best vice president I could be, but waiting for November. Well, you know, I'm, I'm super excited for you as well. There's certainly, there's a group of us that like to run around a little bit and it's, it's been fun to watch you, you know, come through and, uh, I'm just,

really pleased as anything just to see all the success that you've had. So, and listen, I should say thanks for giving back, you know, to serve on these boards and to do all that you do. And you're really, I think golf's number one cheerleader, you know? And so I just think that that's awesome. Not a lot of people are willing to kind of put themselves out there the way that you are, but I think it's important.

You know, it's, it's, it's important that there are voices in the game that are continually promoting play, right? We want to have more players. We want to have more players. And then you do a phenomenal job of talking about careers in golf, uh, and making sure that the PGA professional is compensated appropriately. And look, guys, you can do this with a key sheet and then you'll earn the respect of the owner or you'll earn a couple more dollars. I think all those things that I've watched you talk about over the years have been really good. So I just want to.

patch on the back and say thanks for doing all that stuff. Well, it's nice to make up. Appreciate you. You know, you don't get paid for this matter of fact, it costs you money. I'm sure it does. I'm sure it does. But I would say, you know, I don't say this lightly. I wasn't in the military, but to me it's like you ask somebody, you know, why did you join the Marines or Navy Air Force Coast Guard? Because they they love their country and they're like, hey, I want to do it. You know, want to serve my country. I want to be the one percent that defends the 99 percent.

You know, for me, I do, I love the PGA. I just know it could be better. I know that the golf is amazing. I know that I've seen it change the life. I've seen it save a life. And so, yeah, even though it cost me money, it'd be like asking somebody, you know, why'd you join the military? I did it because I want to get back. And yeah, and I appreciate what you're saying. I do take it seriously. I've got three years left in a sense. I'm going to run through the tape, but you're never going to stop hearing me about golf because I know it's sent my daughter to college. I know it helps.

You know, my son make a living and helps me make a living. And I just know it's the greatest industry ever. I really do. I mean, isn't it? I mean, the people in our industry, you and I have gone back and forth and like each other all the time. Right. We've just agreed. Well, let me correct that. We've liked each other. We might have disagreed on some things very, you know, face to face. But isn't that what America is about? Yeah. I could argue about something and going on. Right. You're right. Guess what? And by the way, Don, and by the way, doing it civilly, right?

doing it in a way that, but if I knew you needed help, I would help you in a second. Right. Not, not like I hate you because you don't agree with me. I got no time for that. I got no time for that. Right. I, and I think golf is a great place to foster people coming together that, that maybe see some things differently. Sure. It's the best. Listen, enjoy Augusta for sure. I'm really anxious to see.

what you guys do with the PGA championship over the next couple of years. I think these four majors have become so much more dramatic, right? Because of some of the things that have happened in golf. It's fun from a fan's perspective to watch. And then the last thing I would say is I encourage you to write a review about the technology you're using. Come on our site, write a review. You don't have to use your last name. These things are anonymous, but it's good. The more operators that see other operators chiming in, I think that that's a positive.

Well, I will. I'm on planes enough that I can knock that out for you. That's right. And I'll tell you what, I'll give you an open eye, too. Like I said, we just talked about we're assessing all of our technology because we need it to all integrate with the funnels that we've created. And so as I do a deep dive into that and we find out what everybody's got, I'll let you know what we come up with. Awesome. Awesome. All right, Don, thank you very much. Have a great rest of your week. Thanks, Mike. You too. OK, see you. Bye.